Upcoming tariffs on vehicles made outside the US
- Thread starter AndrewTK
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That's really to bad. The last gen Tundra (built through 2021) is LEGENDARY in terms of dependability, reliability, and capability. Truly an amazing truck and very high quality. And built right here in Texas, the good ole U S of A
I guess it’s about time for Toyota to begin production of a LC plant in Texas. Use those legendary engineers from Japan to oversee quality control and have a truly ZERO tariff vehicle. Looks like American labor is gonna win this one…
Note that the tariff applies to parts as well, not just assembly (Fact Sheet: President Donald J. Trump Adjusts Imports of Automobiles and Automobile Parts into the United States). Curious to see how that will play out, I believe most cars have a high % of foreign parts.
So even if the vehicle is assembled here, the price may be impacted if the parts are imported.
I research my non-trivial purchases and try to patronize American companies that build and employ domestically. I would love to buy an all American made truck with the right features and quality track record, but the Bronco was the only thing really comparable for capability and it doesn't compare for fit, finish, and quality remains to be seen (but not great so far if I remember correctly). I'm concerned that this move removes domestic price and quality incentives by reducing competition.
I seriously considered Ford. I've had 4 Rangers and 2 Tacomas and all have been good. Plus Ford is a respectable American company (ie bail-outs etc), but the Bronco doesn't cut it for me. Plus, I like subtlety and refinement in my cars, and that's not Ford's bag these days.
So even if the vehicle is assembled here, the price may be impacted if the parts are imported.
I research my non-trivial purchases and try to patronize American companies that build and employ domestically. I would love to buy an all American made truck with the right features and quality track record, but the Bronco was the only thing really comparable for capability and it doesn't compare for fit, finish, and quality remains to be seen (but not great so far if I remember correctly). I'm concerned that this move removes domestic price and quality incentives by reducing competition.
I seriously considered Ford. I've had 4 Rangers and 2 Tacomas and all have been good. Plus Ford is a respectable American company (ie bail-outs etc), but the Bronco doesn't cut it for me. Plus, I like subtlety and refinement in my cars, and that's not Ford's bag these days.
This current administration announced their intent to run in Nov of 2022. All these automakers knew full well this current administration was America first! This is nothing new. These automakers have had over 2 years since that time to move their production to the US. They played their hand wrong betting against the current administration. So spare me, build it here, all of it, and ZERO tariffs. Looks like the America first agenda and the American worker is finally being considered…
- Jun 8, 2024
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Let me start by saying I am generally not a fan of tariffs.
However other countries around the world heavily tariff US made goods, so turn about is fair play. If they don’t like tariffs from us in return maybe we should talk about it? Negotiate. There’s a novel concept. Now the other party has a real reason to come to the table.
Despite my dislike for tariffs, there is a place for them as a tool to protect critical industries, and encourage re-shoring of those industries.
I think a very strong argument can be made that the automotive industry and the supply chain of that industry is absolutely critical to national defense. If push comes to shove automotive plants can be switched over to making all sorts of other things we might critically need in the event of a major conflict. Parts suppliers, foundries, electronic component manufacturers etc are also vital to those efforts. We also need raw materials to feed those industries so that means we have to protect US manufacturing and mining.
In addition to maintaining and growing manufacturing capacity on the physical plant and machinery side, just as important is maintaining and growing the work force involved in manufacturing and building. We need more engineers, more skilled craftsmen, and more skilled tradesmen.
As COVID recently demonstrated to anyone paying attention the national security implications of not being self sufficient in manufacturing and production of raw materials is not a good spot to be in as a nation. It doesn’t require a shooting war to royally f**k things up if international supply chains go tits up.
However other countries around the world heavily tariff US made goods, so turn about is fair play. If they don’t like tariffs from us in return maybe we should talk about it? Negotiate. There’s a novel concept. Now the other party has a real reason to come to the table.
Despite my dislike for tariffs, there is a place for them as a tool to protect critical industries, and encourage re-shoring of those industries.
I think a very strong argument can be made that the automotive industry and the supply chain of that industry is absolutely critical to national defense. If push comes to shove automotive plants can be switched over to making all sorts of other things we might critically need in the event of a major conflict. Parts suppliers, foundries, electronic component manufacturers etc are also vital to those efforts. We also need raw materials to feed those industries so that means we have to protect US manufacturing and mining.
In addition to maintaining and growing manufacturing capacity on the physical plant and machinery side, just as important is maintaining and growing the work force involved in manufacturing and building. We need more engineers, more skilled craftsmen, and more skilled tradesmen.
As COVID recently demonstrated to anyone paying attention the national security implications of not being self sufficient in manufacturing and production of raw materials is not a good spot to be in as a nation. It doesn’t require a shooting war to royally f**k things up if international supply chains go tits up.
This could not be more clearly stated nor more well said. Totally agreed.
Things that were also normal: AIDS. Pollution. Asbestos. Cold War and the threat of nuclear annihilation. Homophobia. Cigarette smoke everywhere. 4.9-10.8% unemployment over that time span. Women doing something other than being a homemaker was radical and criticized. Casual racism. Lead paint. Leaded gasoline. Gas lines from the oil crisis. Crack. "War on Drugs". Wars or war support from Reagan to dictators. Challenger. Valdez. Air traffic controller union striking and Reagan firing them all was ultimately the start that led to over 188,000 job losses. The start of purposefully widening the income inequality gap. No car safety. Treating Vietnam vets like crap. Drinking and driving. Cancer causing pesticides.
I see many families with one car, some with none, some with two or three, whether well off or not. Plenty of kids are still walking to school - I see them every day. My kids walked to school for a large part of their school life. Still plenty of busses running, public transportation has grown considerably.
Two weeks of vacation absolutely sucks - nobody likes that. Nobody wants that. I don't think anyone pines for the days of two weeks of vacation.
I don't even know what a "masculine" job is. Does that mean men are limited to physical labor? What's a "manly" job definition?
And take a wild guess at what is also up? Your source looks like AI, so I'll use the same (sorry if that's incorrect), and another source that isn't.
The average price of a new vehicle is right at $50K. Even if the tariff’s do raise prices a Land Cruiser will not be that much more than that. People were paying $90K for the last version of the LC when the average price of a new was under $40K…
Everyone does not have to have a LC, you can go pick up a new 4Runner SR5 4WD at or below that “average” price /:
Everyone does not have to have a LC, you can go pick up a new 4Runner SR5 4WD at or below that “average” price /:
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This list of effective tariffs by country is an interesting read:
List of countries by tariff rate - Wikipedia
With Venezuela being a possible exception, none of these tariffs are anywhere in the neighborhood of magnitude this administration is using, plus they are levied universally across all importers and not being weaponized against certain countries. Also notably, the US tariff rates on that chart are in the cluster of normal, which means that absent tariff tantrums from the current administration we are operating in the globally normal area.
What I’m saying here is that this narrative that other countries are taking advantage of us is not borne in the data.
Two other points:
1- not sure I agree with your point on nationalized production removing risk compared to globalized trade. In a free trade environment where no country is trying to overtax another, each country provides goods and services it is best capable of providing to the benefit of the larger whole. Same idea is why you and I don’t grow our own onions - someone else can do it better and cheaper than I can so I buy them at the store, but on a global scale. The inflation we saw during the pandemic was global and created by a global supply chain shock. There’s no supportable point that it would have been better if we’d been growing our own avocados. It would probably have been worse, certainly sector by sector. Especially when you factor in that we cannot grow enough avocados (for example) to satisfy our own demand.
To assert that we should pull all manufacturing back to the USA dogmatically and not because we do it well is an idea not being advanced presently because it makes economic sense, but because advancing that concept is good for the political fortunes of a certain group of people.
2- Using tariffs as a negotiating threat as you suggest might not work. That negotiation strategy implicitly assumes that we are the only available trading partner for whatever commodity in question, and that we have high leverage to dictate terms. In some situations there are other notable global suppliers who will not threaten to tariff - and Russia and China are among them in many cases. If we prove to be too difficult to work with, our trading partners will simply abandon our business relationship and move their account to someone else. Which not only hurts our producers but strengthens the economies of those we view as our trading rivals.
Long story short - this trading tirade is, in my opinion and the opinion of virtually every other economist not employed by a news outlet or political party, not a good idea.
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- Jun 8, 2024
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This list of effective tariffs by country is an interesting read:
List of countries by tariff rate - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
With Venezuela being a possible exception, none of these tariffs are anywhere in the neighborhood of magnitude this administration is using, plus they are levied universally across all importers and not being weaponized against certain countries. Also notably, the US tariff rates on that chart are in the cluster of normal, which means that absent tariff tantrums from the current administration we are operating in the globally normal area.
What I’m saying here is that this narrative that other countries are taking advantage of us is not borne in the data.
Two other points:
1- not sure I agree with your point on nationalized production removing risk compared to globalized trade. In a free trade environment where no country is trying to overtax another, each country provides goods and services it is best capable of providing to the benefit of the larger whole. Same idea is why you and I don’t grow our own onions - someone else can do it better and cheaper than I can so I buy them at the store, but on a global scale. The inflation we saw during the pandemic was global and created by a global supply chain shock. There’s no supportable point that it would have been better if we’d been growing our own avocados. It would probably have been worse, certainly sector by sector. Especially when you factor in that we cannot grow enough avocados (for example) to satisfy our own demand.
To assert that we should pull all manufacturing back to the USA dogmatically and not because we do it well is an idea not being advanced presently because it makes economic sense, but because advancing that concept is good for the political fortunes of a certain group of people.
2- Using tariffs as a negotiating threat as you suggest might not work. That negotiation strategy implicitly assumes that we are the only available trading partner for whatever commodity in question, and that we have high leverage to dictate terms. In some situations there are other notable global suppliers who will not threaten to tariff - and Russia and China are among them in many cases. If we prove to be too difficult to work with, our trading partners will simply abandon our business relationship and move their account to someone else. Which not only hurts our producers but strengthens the economies of those we view as our trading rivals.
Long story short - this trading tirade is, in my opinion and the opinion of virtually every other economist not employed by a news outlet or political party, not a good idea.
I’m not suggesting that all manufacturing should be done within US borders, or that we should endeavor to pursue agricultural goals that are not supported by our climate and soil.
I am arguing that there are some industries that are a critical core competency for a 1st world industrialized nation to have and maintain. Your position is the same as I heard in economics classes, and various business classes in college. This method of out sourcing everything to reduce costs and increase profit margins comes at a cost over time. Eventually we end up not making anything of value, and lose economic relevance.
Furthermore you make an economic argument that ignores the reality of humans being social apex predators who compete for resources and territory. Conflicts happen, and will continue to happen. If any lessons are to be learned from WWI and WWII it is that industrial might and resources matter. After about 6 months of going all out hammer and tongs at a neer peer opponent, you better be able to replace equipment, ammunition, and other supplies or you are quickly going to be out.
The Chinese sure as hell learned this, and people like you obligingly encouraged outsourcing as much manufacturing as possible to them. They’re not our friends, and you’re still maintaining that we should continue fueling their industrial and economic might? I don’t care what economists say in this case, they’re not considering second and third order effects.
Wisdom. Wisdom indeed.
What you are missing is that the typical US auto worker makes at least 2x what his counterpart in Japan earns. The discrepancy in Mexico is even greater, and in China it's a massive difference. We can certainly build cars, and other items, in the US, but Americans are unwilling to pay the dramatically increased prices that would result. Yes, it's a challenge, but it's one that has been in the making for decades. I just don't see highly labor intensive, cost sensitive, manufacturing coming back to the US except in limited circumstances.
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Then we are doomed.
Our addiction to cheap disposable foreign made goods will turn us into an irrelevant backwater waiting to be conquered.
When the path of least resistance is essentially weakness, most people will choose weakness.
I don’t mind buying products from countries we are allied with, from manufacturers that do invest and produce here. I personally go out of my way to not buy Chinese made shit if I can avoid it and there is a similar product not made in China available. Even when it costs more money. For example I will not set foot in Harbor Freight. I hope they go out of business, and they deserve to for peddling communist slave labor produced shit.
Yeah, I get it and try to do the same. But it's incumbent on the US to be the world's best at "something", and export it. For the last few decades, that commodity has been knowledge workers, finance and technology. As we've all seen, the wealthiest class of Americans has seen their wealth soar. The economic returns on capital and technology have been fantastic, but the returns on labor have not kept pace. The middle class has been left out of the economic growth that the US has recently enjoyed.. Rest assured that has not been an accident, it's intentional. Busting unions, allowing health care costs to soar, and keeping marginal tax rates historically low are some of the most obvious reasons.
So how do we level the playing field? Raise taxes on the highest earners, they can easily afford it. Invest in public education, we absolutely need a highly intelligent workforce to compete on a global scale. Continue Biden's infrastructure bill, which pays good wages to blue collar workers rebuilding our aging infrastructure.
Unfortunately, public education in much of the country has been decimated, and we end up electing people who make really stupid decisions.
The US and the seceding from the UK is based on cash flow, taxation vs we want to keep more of what we make here.
The rest is a sell job.
Based on that principle any vehicle profits and revenue that go off shore should be taxed.
The rest is a sell job.
Based on that principle any vehicle profits and revenue that go off shore should be taxed.
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@Ike582
The highest earners are already paying over 50% of collected revenue by the IRS. Even if all their income was confiscated by taxation it wouldn’t solve anything.
Our public education system is completely broken. Throwing more money at it without major reforms solves nothing and simply incinerates the cash. We could make school great again but it will require harsh discipline for disruptive shit bag students, consequences for their shitty parents, and likewise strictly enforced standards for educators, and shitbird administrator pukes when their school is under performing.
We should also stop funneling kids into college who will never see a positive ROI on their degree because they’re studying useless nonsense. Get the government out of the student loan business, if you’re going to school and want to study sociology or some other dumb shit so you can be assistant manager at the GAP, you should be on your own paying for it.
As a tax payer I want to be made whole on those loans. So unless you can get a degree in some legitimately marketable and useful (aka difficult and demanding) go kick rocks. I’m uninterested funding the extended adolescence of children so they can party and pretend to study.
As for Joe Biden’s infrastructure bill, that is a steaming pile of shit just like he is. Funny you mention union busting. I work as a RR engineer, Biden was recently quite adroit at union busting when he shoved a contract down our throats using the Railway Labor Act. So fuck Joe Biden, I hope his corrupt old ass gets cancer and he fucking die from it in absolute agony.
The highest earners are already paying over 50% of collected revenue by the IRS. Even if all their income was confiscated by taxation it wouldn’t solve anything.
Our public education system is completely broken. Throwing more money at it without major reforms solves nothing and simply incinerates the cash. We could make school great again but it will require harsh discipline for disruptive shit bag students, consequences for their shitty parents, and likewise strictly enforced standards for educators, and shitbird administrator pukes when their school is under performing.
We should also stop funneling kids into college who will never see a positive ROI on their degree because they’re studying useless nonsense. Get the government out of the student loan business, if you’re going to school and want to study sociology or some other dumb shit so you can be assistant manager at the GAP, you should be on your own paying for it.
As a tax payer I want to be made whole on those loans. So unless you can get a degree in some legitimately marketable and useful (aka difficult and demanding) go kick rocks. I’m uninterested funding the extended adolescence of children so they can party and pretend to study.
As for Joe Biden’s infrastructure bill, that is a steaming pile of shit just like he is. Funny you mention union busting. I work as a RR engineer, Biden was recently quite adroit at union busting when he shoved a contract down our throats using the Railway Labor Act. So fuck Joe Biden, I hope his corrupt old ass gets cancer and he fucking die from it in absolute agony.
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