Brakes Squeal

jenos96 said:

Mine will squeal occasionally breaking in D, not just R. Toyota can we get this recalled?

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Hi everyone, if you haven't already, I would suggest opening a case with the Toyota Brand Engagement contact form? It only took me a few minutes and I also attached a video recording of the screeching.

Contact Us | Contact Toyota (scroll to the bottom of the page)

I opened a case last week and my case manager contacted me this morning for additional details. She made it sound like the more cases that are opened for this, the higher chance of it being addressed sooner.

I had it to the dealer already, but they failed to reproduce the problem (strange since it happens to me almost every morning).

I was at the dealer today to get an oil change, and mentioned the reverse brake squealing I get daily. They offered to look at it, and the only suggestion was to lubricate at a cost of ~$120.. 1,200 miles, it's not covered by warranty because it's not a mechanical issue according to the service manager. Nuts. They then proceeded to tell me my next oil change is at 20,000 miles, and just a tire rotation is all that's needed at 10k. Bonkers.

Thanks for posting the contact info, will submit something as well.

gavinrobinson12 said:

I was at the dealer today to get an oil change, and mentioned the reverse brake squealing I get daily. They offered to look at it, and the only suggestion was to lubricate at a cost of ~$120.. 1,200 miles, it's not covered by warranty because it's not a mechanical issue according to the service manager. Nuts. They then proceeded to tell me my next oil change is at 20,000 miles, and just a tire rotation is all that's needed at 10k. Bonkers.

Thanks for posting the contact info, will submit something as well.

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FIND ANOTHER DEALER.

Dropped mine off at dealer this morning for broken lever and squeeling brakes

trek805 said:

Dropped mine off at dealer this morning for broken lever and squeeling brakes

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What lever?

Lever that jacks up passenger seat (1958 model). It pulled off. Keeper was broken. Dealer just called said they cant hear the squeal. Of course not. Damn dealer

trek805 said:

Lever that jacks up passenger seat (1958 model). It pulled off. Keeper was broken. Dealer just called said they cant hear the squeal. Of course not. Damn dealer

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Hi - sorry to hear that. Welcome to the club. I suggest creating a case with Toyota Brand Management? The person assigned to my case seems to be taking it seriously and they made another appointment for me in a few weeks, after she spoke with the service manager at the dealer.

ours started doing this at about 3k miles, only when backing out of the garage in the morning so far. haven't taken it to the dealer yet

Certainly @Toyota will get parts out to dealers, and a recall or TSB out soon.

For those who’s dealership service department couldn’t replicate the problem and if they just blow you off. Try to record the squeal on phone and use the service advisor’s email address (not a text) to send the video. In the video narrate what the conditions are (cold start, vehicle parked outside overnight, about to back out, “it’s going to squeal when I apply the brake” it goes away once the vehicle is warmed up.). Email the video and write what your concerns are. If they say they can’t open the video or see it, then upload the video to YouTube and email the YouTube link. This way you have your complaint on record (the email). It’s documented and a service advisor cannot ignore an email, they are required to respond. Their response will also now be on record. You can use this record to help your case.

Also it probably will help if you can leave your vehicle overnight so they can replicate the conditions exactly.
“cold start, vehicle parked outside overnight, when you back out, “it’s going to squeal when you apply the brake” it goes away once the vehicle is warmed up”.

If you are sent away with no results, follow up with a reply all email. “Thank you for looking at my vehicle. Just wanted to follow up and clarify. My vehicle is doing this……. I brought it in and you were unable to replicate and resolve this issue. Your guidance is …….. I appreciate your assistance, please reach out to me if Toyota figures this out and releases a TSB that resolves this issue.”

Or

“ Thank you for looking at my vehicle today. I just wanted to follow up and make sure I understand everything correctly. My vehicle is doing ……. I brought it in on (month, day, year) and you were able to replicate the issue. Unfortunately at this time you do not know why this is happening and therefore have no solution available. For now I just have to live with this issue until Toyota has a recall or TSB that can resolve this problem. Am I understanding all of this correctly?

Something like that.

I am a new member here as I am working my way towards buying a Land Cruiser, if risk of theft decreases (already a downtrend). the posts here made me laugh a bit because they are not indicative of a technical defect. Having once ordered to spec aerospace grade strand woven ceramic brakes for my German car (non resin), it looks I might get 1,000,000 kms out of them, I know quite a bit about brakes.

The picture above make me smile into nearly telling it out loud! BED YOUR BRAKES. The sound is nothing but resonance caused by imbedded rotors, new pads, and other climate factors. The rotors look neglected - unused and so on. usually for any rental car, airport or danger zone, bedding rotors to remove squealing is the first thing I do. It is easy to do on a LC as it is a heavy vehicle so you do not need to pull 1G or so as I do on sports cars with big brake kits.

The rear rotors are the hardest to bed in, but will be the first to squeal in reverse because the rear brake bias kicks in. yes, morning moisture will result in the sensor commanding brake pressure to prepare the rear rotor for braking in reverse (drying). As for moisture causing rotor discolouration- very rare especially on high grade rotors. Brembo OEM steel rotors will discolour with rain contact, water but not moisture- not for one or several nights. Low corrosion rate.

Once the bedding in occurs, the rotors will have changed colour evenly as the rotor changes properties with heat - the fronts will show it the most. The crystalline bond between unworn materials is broken, and the pad transfers to the rotor. In addition, varying other surface transformations on the rotor steel/iron ensure judder and squeal free operation. Alternatively, unbedded rotors and pads will resonate at their worse when new, unused, and partially contacting each other. Squeeeall!



Keep in mind for the link that a heavy vehicle requires smaller velocity to achieve the same bed in effects as a much lighter car.

But, basically once your rotors develop that blue grey tint, and that original machining is gone, so should the squealing be done. The surfaces, moist or not, will not squeal.

In Canada, there was a point where I would have to re-bed in my rotors each spring (winter salts stripping the brembos) as we could not brake sufficiently in winter, too cold etc. but with climate change we now get -25C days followed up by 5C so I brake harder the warmer days to retransfer the pad material. I usually do a a few harder presses on any courtesy cars just to get the unglazed, (and slippery) which saved me two months ago as my foot went to the floor- the courtesy car had a ruptured brake line and luckily I brake checked right before taking the highway…

Big brake kit owners- most new cars today, are constantly returning to service centers with such issues. have seen 4 months old 1500$ brembo fronts on German cars ruined as first time owners babied their braking for whatever Toyota reasons (usually Toyota owners moving to sports cars are the most frugal gentle breakers). Or to cite Shelby, , use it to get it working and it so; never work well nor last if unused.

That aside, I cannot speak as to the quality of Toyota LC rotors, Japanese brands have been atrocious for brake parts quality- excluding Lexus. Searching for the parts, they appear a low range offering disc rotors. not all rotors are created equal, a good rotor should last (at 12% winter salinity for 5 months), 100 000 kms front and 140,000 kms rear with bedding in. I had cheap rotors rot, develop Sagittal plane rust, fail me catastrophically, but never a brembo, never a high quality one. ceramics aside, quality rotors bed in easily, last a long time, may rust surface only but not internally, and so on. If rotors issues persist, I would get custom high grade rotors for the LC. And why not? It is a beautiful; big vehicle and it should have superb noise free braking as well.

Belisarius said:

I am a new member here as I am working my way towards buying a Land Cruiser, if risk of theft decreases (already a downtrend). the posts here made me laugh a bit because they are not indicative of a technical defect. Having once ordered to spec aerospace grade strand woven ceramic brakes for my German car (non resin), it looks I might get 1,000,000 kms out of them, I know quite a bit about brakes.

The picture above make me smile into nearly telling it out loud! BED YOUR BRAKES. The sound is nothing but resonance caused by imbedded rotors, new pads, and other climate factors. The rotors look neglected - unused and so on. usually for any rental car, airport or danger zone, bedding rotors to remove squealing is the first thing I do. It is easy to do on a LC as it is a heavy vehicle so you do not need to pull 1G or so as I do on sports cars with big brake kits.

The rear rotors are the hardest to bed in, but will be the first to squeal in reverse because the rear brake bias kicks in. yes, morning moisture will result in the sensor commanding brake pressure to prepare the rear rotor for braking in reverse (drying). As for moisture causing rotor discolouration- very rare especially on high grade rotors. Brembo OEM steel rotors will discolour with rain contact, water but not moisture- not for one or several nights. Low corrosion rate.

Once the bedding in occurs, the rotors will have changed colour evenly as the rotor changes properties with heat - the fronts will show it the most. The crystalline bond between unworn materials is broken, and the pad transfers to the rotor. In addition, varying other surface transformations on the rotor steel/iron ensure judder and squeal free operation. Alternatively, unbedded rotors and pads will resonate at their worse when new, unused, and partially contacting each other. Squeeeall!

THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT WARPED BRAKE ROTORS

The REAL truth about warped brake rotors... The typical situation: New pads are fitted to a new pair of brake discs. A week later there’s a vibration or “judder” when the brakes are applied. A call to a mechanically inclined friend and an online search offers the diagnosis—the brake rotors are...

alconkits.com

Keep in mind for the link that a heavy vehicle requires smaller velocity to achieve the same bed in effects as a much lighter car.

But, basically once your rotors develop that blue grey tint, and that original machining is gone, so should the squealing be done. The surfaces, moist or not, will not squeal.

In Canada, there was a point where I would have to re-bed in my rotors each spring (winter salts stripping the brembos) as we could not brake sufficiently in winter, too cold etc. but with climate change we now get -25C days followed up by 5C so I brake harder the warmer days to retransfer the pad material. I usually do a a few harder presses on any courtesy cars just to get the unglazed, (and slippery) which saved me two months ago as my foot went to the floor- the courtesy car had a ruptured brake line and luckily I brake checked right before taking the highway…

Big brake kit owners- most new cars today, are constantly returning to service centers with such issues. have seen 4 months old 1500$ brembo fronts on German cars ruined as first time owners babied their braking for whatever Toyota reasons (usually Toyota owners moving to sports cars are the most frugal gentle breakers). Or to cite Shelby, , use it to get it working and it so; never work well nor last if unused.

That aside, I cannot speak as to the quality of Toyota LC rotors, Japanese brands have been atrocious for brake parts quality- excluding Lexus. Searching for the parts, they appear a low range offering disc rotors. not all rotors are created equal, a good rotor should last (at 12% winter salinity for 5 months), 100 000 kms front and 140,000 kms rear with bedding in. I had cheap rotors rot, develop Sagittal plane rust, fail me catastrophically, but never a brembo, never a high quality one. ceramics aside, quality rotors bed in easily, last a long time, may rust surface only but not internally, and so on. If rotors issues persist, I would get custom high grade rotors for the LC. And why not? It is a beautiful; big vehicle and it should have superb noise free braking as well.

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I am sooo happy you posted this very detailed, informative response.

I’ve owned what I would consider mid-end sports cars (M3 competition, Shelby GT350). When they were both new, both squeaked loudly, especially the Brembo brakes on the Shelby, until bedded in. Especially after wash, rain, etc. In fact I believe the manual in one of the vehicles talked about ensuring you bed your brakes properly.

My wife and I both own new LCs. Hers was made in the Tahara plant, mine in Hamura plant (traditionally a truck plant). Her brakes squeak only the first time braking going in reverse out of the driveway in the morning after sitting overnight or especially if it’s been a few days. Never any actual issues with performance. The difference between LCs? She has used hers primarily for short trips around town since purchase, mine immediately went on a 2 hour road highway trip where some braking was necessary at higher speeds. Interesting enough, my brake performance is very good but seems ever so slightly softer than hers, her brakes are fantastic and responsive, almost reminding me of my sports cars with higher end factory brakes.

TLDR—I’ve found zero issues with actual performance, I’ve seen this sound going reverse on sports cars I’ve owned, and I agree with everything the user same above. Great post.

mscenturion said:

I am sooo happy you posted this very detailed, informative response.

I’ve owned what I would consider mid-end sports cars (M3 competition, Shelby GT350). When they were both new, both squeaked loudly, especially the Brembo brakes on the Shelby, until bedded in. Especially after wash, rain, etc. In fact I believe the manual in one of the vehicles talked about ensuring you bed your brakes properly.

My wife and I both own new LCs. Hers was made in the Tahara plant, mine in Hamura plant (traditionally a truck plant). Her brakes squeak only the first time braking going in reverse out of the driveway in the morning after sitting overnight or especially if it’s been a few days. Never any actual issues with performance. The difference between LCs? She has used hers primarily for short trips around town since purchase, mine immediately went on a 2 hour road highway trip where some braking was necessary at higher speeds. Interesting enough, my brake performance is very good but seems ever so slightly softer than hers, her brakes are fantastic and responsive, almost reminding me of my sports cars with higher end factory brakes.

TLDR—I’ve found zero issues with actual performance, I’ve seen this sound going reverse on sports cars I’ve owned, and I agree with everything the user same above. Great post.

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If the vehicles are identical barring mileage and point of origin, the only culprits can be different parts , contamination or brake line pressure. I feel brake pressure decrease at 12-16 month’s especially if driven in rain, moisture sips in. IMO the manufacturers brake fluid interval replacement is mere to reduce service costs but should not be 2-3 years except if the vehicle is brand new.

The second hypothesis for the braking difference would be different rotors or pads. Pads (assuming they have not been contaminated) are not equal though the supply chain.

But one of the reason we must wash rotors with wheel and rotor cleaner is to remove comtamination. Your highway driven LC may pick up exhaust fumes and oil from any sedan especially old one. That film is easy to spot on car finish but your car is too high for that. But on the highway , near diesel trucks those fumes do contain small oil particles etc. depends in rotor cooling system, your M had cooling ducts so road 1 foot height contaminants are funneled straight into the rotors. But if we pull next to a guzzling construction truck, when it leaves the stop line that exhaust is full of oil particles pushing on our rotors. Soap gets that cleaned up.

Nonetheless, bedded in rotors will door emergency stops 20-30% shorter than a glazed or unbedded rotor, perhaps even 50%. that can be the difference between rear ending or not. Courtesy cars are notorious- cheap rotors, glazed, they just slide as if on ice.

For a LC I would do the warmup followed by 8 to 10 0.5 G (phone app) slow down from 80 to 15 km hr without stopping, reaccelerating to 80 rigger away. When heat and smell sips in the cabin just cruise for 10-15 min to cool them down. I do not see the need for 120 to 40 km / hr hard 0.7 G events.

Probably another factor that increases the squeal is the LC uses less the brakes than a equivalent SUV as some of the brake are done by the hybrid system recharging the battery.

3500 miles in and is squeals every morning. Sometimes few extra times during the day.

I used to have a Charger (Scat Pack Widebody) with massive Brembos and I did a bed in in the first 1000 miles or so, plus I used that brakes like crazy as that car was a insane heavy (and fun). Never had squeal problem (before or after).

I'll try to bed in the brakes one of these days to see if it helps.

DenisLM said:

Probably another factor that increases the squeal is the LC uses less the brakes than a equivalent SUV as some of the brake are done by the hybrid system recharging the battery.

3500 miles in and is squeals every morning. Sometimes few extra times during the day.

I used to have a Charger (Scat Pack Widebody) with massive Brembos and I did a bed in in the first 1000 miles or so, plus I used that brakes like crazy as that car was a insane heavy (and fun). Never had squeal problem (before or after).

I'll try to bed in the brakes one of these days to see if it helps.

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Unsure how the hybrid system does it. I know on some cars, with moisture, the sensors send the input and the car applies the brakes ever so slightly to dry the rotors. Some brands, e.g. Mercedes are very aggressive and owners can expect an AMG 3,000$ brake change per axle as low as 40,000 kms if winter driven. But even when I get moisture related squeal, bedding in the brakes changes the contact surfaces and resonance. In the earlier posts, the LC rotors the owners posted were still retaining machine pattern and the rotor looks like making no contact - not enough to groove its imprint and change the color of the rotor.

The charger is not a good comparison as if it had 6-8 pistons for the 4 corners, plus much more pressure, it works as intended. It will brake better and harder. But on the LC OEM rotors and their own basic calipers, low piston pressure, bedding has to be a scheduled activity. What helps it is mass, so you can put quite a bit of energy at a lower speed.

Trial and error, for all we know if someone gets better pads etc, higher grade rotors etc, everything gets better and quieter. What I do know and we have studies to show, Toyota owners are the most frugal brake users. Worst brakers are of course BMW historically (unlike Prius, they do not brake to accelerate right away), followed by, in video filmed studies, Prius! Prius owners and their personality are so recharge obsessed that they not only do not brake properly but are too cheap to replace rotors and glaze them. Which in turn increases braking zone distance, has them intersection collision prone more than aggressive BMW owners… ironic. When I asked two Prius owners why they do not fix their bodywork damage, they reply not wanting to spend for the deductible, being too cheap. May come as no surprise, but they also empty the Halloween candy bowls at work and never, if ever, do they refill it.

Bluey said:

Something to consider is “bedding in” your brake pads. Most mechanics do this when they install new brakes. I’ve done quite a few brake jobs on my cars everything from Porsches to Diesel Trucks. When I bed in brakes I did it by finding an empty long road with no traffic. This requires a road with no stop signs or traffic lights or other cars on the road. It’s the process of getting your vehicle to about 60mph and applying the brakes hard but letting off before you come to a complete stop. The goal is to brake hard until you slow down to about 10 mph. Keep rolling do not stop completely. Then immediately accelerate up to 60mph and do it again and again. After doing this six or seven times in row the brakes will heat up quite a bit. It will transfer brake pad material to the rotors and rotor material onto the pads. After six or seven consecutive hard applications of the brakes like this you want to let them cool off. Drive and let them cool for a bit before coming to a complete stop. Remember this requires a road with no stop signs or traffic lights or other cars on the road. Stopping and holding the brakes while they are this hot (try not to do it) can transfer too much pad material to the rotor in one spot and can cause vibrations later. I hope I explained that correctly.

Bedding in your brakes should be done whenever you install new brakes. But if you don’t feel confident in doing it correctly you can pay a mechanic to do it for you. I’m not a mechanic or an expert and if you ask my wife I am usually wrong.

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Okay I picked up my new LC on Wednesday. Today BoBo has 200 miles on her and I bedded in her brakes like I described above in another thread. Completed ten pulls and my brakes got really hot. It smelled really strong and afterwards I could see the pad material on the rotors. I drove for a while to let them cool afterwards. Went into Trader Joe’s and did some grocery shopping. Came out and could still smell the brake smell when I got back inside. Hopefully she should be good until spring.

Okay on ih8mud.com someone shared that Lexus released a TSB.

Post in thread 'Technical Service Bulletins--please post them here'
Technical Service Bulletins--please post them here



(Edit) I just realized the ih8mud.com thread references the gx550forum, sister forum of Landcruiserforum.com

Just read this bulletin, it is odd. If the LC or Lexus 550 600 brake kits do not come with shims or springs, that is a bad SNAFU by Toyota. I cannot confirm if their 550 600 OEM sets are Brembo. The good news for owners is that they can get many Brembo aftermarket options. What this bulletin says is that "We know that the FBs squeal, due to glazing and resonance, the pads need to clear the rotors, isolate the pads from pistons with shims and as a courtesy we do this for you." If these pads have no shims, they are more prone to NVH and resonance especially if glazed or used for gentle braking applications. If they do have shims, then the issue is one of rotor glazing and they reorder new pads and shims (for some manufacturers, pads and shims are one). Grease? of course- if you do not grease and esp if you have no shims the pad/piston interface is altered in a variety of conditions- too much heat, too little heat and dust gets in etc . Either or, no matter what, owners should try bedding in their rotors and pads, pre and post such a repair. And reconsider braking distances towards a shorter range. Folks do not know that in the Snowbelt, many Tesla owners got hit with 4000-8000$ US brake repair jobs as they had the regen set to high, so they used their brakes seldomly. The rotors and pads and pistons degrade rapidly over several months of winter, and esp 2nd winter if not heated. Owners may go to the Tesla SC complaining of squealing or brake issues, to be told having a seized piston, glazed or unevenly worn rotors, so all corners rotors, pads, one caliper etc, 8000$.

I opened a case just now, submitted a video. When I took it to the dealer two weeks ago they blamed the fact that I had driven the LC through dirt and mud but it made the horrible screeching sound before my off-road trip and still makes it now after they said they cleaned the brakes up. Hopefully we get a TSB soon but I will try some aggressive braking this weekend to see if that helps it. I am driving this LC in a more relaxed way to maximize mpg but maybe some heavier brake pedal will help.

sjl136 said:

I opened a case just now, submitted a video. When I took it to the dealer two weeks ago they blamed the fact that I had driven the LC through dirt and mud but it made the horrible screeching sound before my off-road trip and still makes it now after they said they cleaned the brakes up. Hopefully we get a TSB soon but I will try some aggressive braking this weekend to see if that helps it. I am driving this LC in a more relaxed way to maximize mpg but maybe some heavier brake pedal will help.

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For new vehicles the immediate use can have unwanted effects. Had installed a set of rear Brembo steel rotors, and left that industrial area, and by the time I got home, one chip had grooved a rear rotor. First trip leaving the SC. Sometimes it may require immediate pad removal, remove the chip or the chip may dig in the pad and the rotor. Had it happen to a ceramic rotor too (it self fixed in 8 months). For my steel rotors with slots, the chip self removed with heavier braking.

That aside, when bedded, the surface of the rotor experiences changes above a certain temperature, a crystalline contact surface transforms the high carbon steel, tempers it, and it is harder. So for a big beautiful LC, I would brake gently through and after mud, then hose every rotors thoroughly after and spray with a purple iron removal decontamination cleaner (if a hose is standing by, not even 2 min). Then a 50m vehicle move to dry them . My advice, before the bedding in, is to spray the rims / rotors with a good decontamination cleaner (that tuns iron purple). Good pressure rinse. 40-50 m back forth to dry them, and then, only then go out for bedding. Hopefully one does not bed-in rotors with no cleaning between a mud dive and the heat cycles. Am not even that concerned about the rotor/pad interface but the inner rotor ventilation structure. On Japanese supplied rotors, the inside may trap water and muck, and rust it from within. On high grade carbon/steel rotors this does not occur. If mud stays trapped, you may get rotor imbalance, odd pulsations and then curse one of us or Toyota. Mud- esp clay type- can solidify like sticky goo inside the rotor slots. If I suspected that, I would put the pressure tip over the rotor ventilation slats then when rolling, water is ejected.

Bedding is not a one time solve-all process. It requires constant maintenance. For example, say you bed your rotors, go through mud, it is chill and rotors get some orange glow. Either pad or rotors lose some of the bedding and it erodes. In Canada- unsure other places, by law copper was removed from imported or domestic pads. Which means that copper oxidization resistance is gone. So a non copper pad will produce a more rust sensitive bedded surface, one requiring more firm (not 1G crazy braking), but firm cycles to reheat rotors and retransfer material.

• So if the SC cleaned pads etc, they reset whatever pad/rotor interface was there. It could only squeal. Cleaning solved nothing but give you a chance to bed in a cleaned pad.

That aside, if you get really annoyed, you can figure out a high quality after market set of rotors/pads, and your perceptions on how a big LC can stop, how pads should work, will change forever.

I now randomly alter pads for my ceramics, but am careful for steel rotors (I never use cast iron rotors). All I have to do is use the purple smelly decontamination, it removes previous pad material, and repair the new pads with the ceramics. Since the ceramic is exceptionally hard, any bedded material can be undone and redone at will. Cast rotors, on the other hand, require far more care as if you get it wrong, it takes a long time to correct- or never. For example, if one rotor wears a pad at an angle, if you change both pads to new, that rotor with even 0.2 mm deflection will never resolved the runoff symptoms. The new pad cannot work as well on that angles side.

Bedding, and firm braking should be done as often as needed to keep rotors tip top. if vehicle sits 2 weeks in a parking lot, is hosed with torrential rains, bed in after. If the pads get cleaned, swapped, bed. If driven through crazy mud, rince, wash, a good half a dozen firm brake events to get the rotors hot.

At the opposite we have GLAZING, where the rotor is so mirrored polished by gentle braking applications, that the friction film is virtually inexistent. May look NICE but is a seriously compromised brake system. Testing one gets 50%+ longer braking distance than a bedded rotor. Glazing is bad. To undo, clean with purple, let rotors and pads soak water, let a glow develop overnight, the go rebed, If that does not work, at a minimum, replace pads (the old ones would look almost mirror as well). In 2012, not knowing much, had ordered EBC brakes for my Honda. UK made, China garbage. I glazed them and rust progressed under the glazed mirror surface, and it unravelled when I nearly rear ended someone off ramp. The glazed surface fell off exposing rotor core like Swiss cheese. After that went for quality cast rotors and never had such issues again.