Super Confused in Fuel needed for 2024 Land Cruiser.

EOD Guy · Jul 22, 2024

Tripod1404 said:
I mean identical engine/powertrains do not necessarily use use the same compression profile. Turbo on the LC may be tuned to be more aggressive compared to Tacoma and 4runner, which would necessitate higher octane . Also, the user manual clearly states that using non-premium can damage the engine, so I don't think it is purely for performance (page 641).

View attachment 5585

Please explain "compression profile" .

A turbo is nothing more than an exhaust powered air pump has nothing to do with octane. That being said turbos can be fitted with more aggressive turbine wheels and the waste gate can be tuned for more or less pressure to control max boost before the gate opens and relieves the pressure.

The fuel table can be easily modified to add more/less fuel for any given point it the throttle curve but factory tables are usually conservative. A good tuner could adjust the MAP settings, fuel curve and waste gate settings to give max power with a certain octane etc..........

But I doubt Toyota did that, maybe but i doubt it. Fuel is just not the same depending on where you buy it.

Tripod1404 · Jul 22, 2024

EOD Guy said:
Please explain "compression profile" .

A turbo is nothing more than an exhaust powered air pump has nothing to do with octane. That being said turbos can be fitted with more aggressive turbine wheels and the waste gate can be tuned for more or less pressure to control max boost before the gate opens and relieves the pressure.

The fuel table can be easily modified to add more/less fuel for any given point it the throttle curve but factory tables are usually conservative. A good tuner could adjust the MAP settings, fuel curve and waste gate settings to give max power with a certain octane etc..........

But I doubt Toyota did that, maybe but i doubt it. Fuel is just not the same depending on where you buy it.

For compression profile, I basically mean amount of exhaust gas fed to the turbo at a given RPM to generate boost. For instance, they may have different setting for the turbo wastegate valve. Like maybe (in comparison to Tacoma or 4runner ) LC wastegate is tuned to send comparably more exhaust gas to the turbo at lower RPMs, or maybe it is the opposite and it sends more exhaust gas at higher RPMs. If some day we get dyno curves for LC, Tacoma and 4runner, we should be able see if there is a difference in turbo boost.

Like you said, they may have also used different turbines, but Toyota generally doesn't use different parts for the same product (unless such a turbo configuration is used for a Lexus product or something).

Overall, I do not think Toyota would put the expression "may lead to engine damage" to the manual if it was purely a performance choice. The reasons are purely speculative at this point, but one reason I can think on top of my head is that LC generates more exhaust back pressure and that generates short bursts of "overboost" which can cause knocking.

EOD Guy · Jul 22, 2024

Tripod1404 said:
For compression profile, I basically mean amount of exhaust gas fed to the turbo at a given RPM to generate boost. For instance, they may have different setting for the turbo wastegate valve. Like maybe (in comparison to Tacoma or 4runner ) LC wastegate is tuned to send comparably more exhaust gas to the turbo at lower RPMs, or maybe it is the opposite and it sends more exhaust gas at higher RPMs. If some day we get dyno curves for LC, Tacoma and 4runner, we should be able see if there is a difference in turbo boost.

Like you said, they may have also used different turbines, but Toyota generally doesn't use different parts for the same product (unless such a turbo configuration is used for a Lexus product or something).

Overall, I do not think Toyota would put the expression "may lead to engine damage" to the manual if it was purely a performance choice. The reasons are purely speculative at this point, but one reason I can think on top of my head is that LC generates more exhaust back pressure and that generates short bursts of "overboost" which can cause knocking.

Not trying to be offensive but that's not how a waste gate works nor how knocking occurs.

Tripod1404 · Jul 22, 2024

EOD Guy said:
Not trying to be offensive but that's not how a waste gate works nor how knocking occurs.

Wastegate valve regulates amount of exhaust gas flow to the turbo. Spinning turbine compresses the air fed to the engine, allowing injection of more air to the combustion chamber. Compressed air can cause the lower octane fuel to pre-ignite, which causes knocking.

As I explained above we do not know if Toyota used the same compression profile across the powertrain, meaning that the engine may be reaching to something like 90% of it's peak horsepower at, say, 4000 RPM by having a higher boost at that RPM while Tacoma or 4runner may be reaching to 90% of peak at 4600 RPM. Both powertrains will have the same peak horsepower.

Azimuth · Jul 27, 2024

The LC250 sold abroad in the GCC "recommends" premium gas. I'm waiting for the manual to be made available. Note that this is the RON rating, 95 RON translates to ~91 AKI. I wonder if there is any difference in tuning between there and here. Note that this is a non-hybrid model.

EOD Guy · Jul 27, 2024

Tripod1404 said:
Wastegate valve regulates amount of exhaust gas flow to the turbo. Spinning turbine compresses the air fed to the engine, allowing injection of more air to the combustion chamber. Compressed air can cause the lower octane fuel to pre-ignite, which causes knocking.

As I explained above we do not know if Toyota used the same compression profile across the powertrain, meaning that the engine may be reaching to something like 90% of it's peak horsepower at, say, 4000 RPM by having a higher boost at that RPM while Tacoma or 4runner may be reaching to 90% of peak at 4600 RPM. Both powertrains will have the same peak horsepower.

Knocking is not the same thing as pre-ignition.

Knocking is due to part of the air/fuel charge igniting outside of the flame front (imagine pouring a line of gas on the ground and lighting one end and the flame traveling to the other end) and not at the exact moment the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke (we're talking thousandths of a millisecond) and as an example the spark plug fires at 10 degrees before top dead center. In a perfect world a perfect cylinder of flame would reach the top of the compression stroke at exactly the same time providing max power. When part of the flame front gets there before the rest, in layman terms, it rocks the piston a fraction and the sound is made.

Preignition is when the air/fuel charge is ignited before the spark plug fires...... as an example glowing piece of carbon deposit. This could cause knocking.

Low octane could result in knocking, however most modern vehicles have computers that will retard the ignition to compensate for the slower burning air/fuel mixture, which prevents knocking and diminishes power. In the old days you used to manually adjust the timing via the distributor.

If the octane is so low the computer can't compensate, you will get knocking (also called pinging). So, IMO, if it's not pinging it'll be ok, if it is pinging add octane boost and start using a higher grade fuel.

I have never had an engine ping, I have had diminished power and filled with 91 to compensate.

jambo · Jul 27, 2024

EOD Guy said:
Knocking is not the same thing as pre-ignition.

Knocking is due to part of the air/fuel charge igniting outside of the flame front (imagine pouring a line of gas on the ground and lighting one end and the flame traveling to the other end) and not at the exact moment the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke (we're talking thousandths of a millisecond) and as an example the spark plug fires at 10 degrees before top dead center. In a perfect world a perfect cylinder of flame would reach the top of the compression stroke at exactly the same time providing max power. When part of the flame front gets there before the rest, in layman terms, it rocks the piston a fraction and the sound is made.

Preignition is when the air/fuel charge is ignited before the spark plug fires...... as an example glowing piece of carbon deposit. This could cause knocking.

Low octane could result in knocking, however most modern vehicles have computer that will retard the ignition to compensate for the slower burning air/fuel mixture, which prevents knocking and diminishes power.

If the octane is so low the computer can't compensate, you will get knocking (also called pinging). So, IMO, if it's not pinging it'll be ok, if it is pinging add octane boost and start using a higher grade fuel.

I have never had an engine ping; I have had diminished power and filled with 91 to compensate.

My LX 470 used to knock with 87 octane going steep uphill. Very much audible. Sounds like a diesel engine. If you have ever run the engine without the valve cover on and hear the tappets making sound. Moment I put in premium gas noise disappeared.

FarooqMCSE · Aug 1, 2024

Hi all,
Need to report a few operational issues with my mid tier Landy with premium package.1) Four skinny red cables were forcibly sold to me for $70. When Landy has Blue Tooth for connectivity, why do I need cables for connectivity. Then when I have Qi wireless charging provided, why do I need any left over cables from previous generation. This is rip off, Toyota, if your eyes are open. 2) HUD disappears and a few other display items. Barely have seen HUD 3 times in 7 days. D
Promise, I did not touch anything to be deprived of HUD. Programming of HUD was assigned to junior high kids so their incompetent debacle clearly shows. 3)When you are in the settings, many pages have no way of going back or canceling. You end up turning off engine to get rid of some pages. Great job Toyota.
Then pages and settings are not intuitive or user friendly. It requires effort to make it intuitive, only if programming kids have heard these words.4)Fan speed lowest setting is 1. You can not turn off fan. Even if you are cold fan will blow air on you. Highly undesirable. 5)Dealer installed option, alarm did cause my car to be totally inoperative for 15 days. RoadSide guys come but was shocked to hear that I am only a tow guy. Can't check battery, can't jump battery. Congratulations to Toyota for running an excellently helpful program.6)LDA, Lane departure assist is the biggest blunder Toyota has committed. Defeating LDA took some time.
After driving for 50+ years, LDA forcibly takes control from my highly experienced hands and I am thrown in the harm's way. A steel, 55 gallon drum, in the early dawn hours in the middle of the freeway in Orange County, on 57 freeway. Saw it at the last second, I had one second to safely change lane but LDA took control of my steering and forced me back in the lane. I thought I will be dead in a few seconds. Diabolic Toyota incompetent programmers are the only reason I had a near heart attack. Hey Toyota, did you try Lane Departure in different situations? How stupid you want to be. You have earned plenty of disrespect from me. After I pay off 82 grand, did I only buy near disasters and headaches?

Fort7365 · Aug 1, 2024

FarooqMCSE said:
Hi all,
Need to report a few operational issues with my mid tier Landy with premium package.1) Four skinny red cables were forcibly sold to me for $70. When Landy has Blue Tooth for connectivity, why do I need cables for connectivity. Then when I have Qi wireless charging provided, why do I need any left over cables from previous generation. This is rip off, Toyota, if your eyes are open. 2) HUD disappears and a few other display items. Barely have seen HUD 3 times in 7 days. D
Promise, I did not touch anything to be deprived of HUD. Programming of HUD was assigned to junior high kids so their incompetent debacle clearly shows. 3)When you are in the settings, many pages have no way of going back or canceling. You end up turning off engine to get rid of some pages. Great job Toyota.
Then pages and settings are not intuitive or user friendly. It requires effort to make it intuitive, only if programming kids have heard these words.4)Fan speed lowest setting is 1. You can not turn off fan. Even if you are cold fan will blow air on you. Highly undesirable. 5)Dealer installed option, alarm did cause my car to be totally inoperative for 15 days. RoadSide guys come but was shocked to hear that I am only a tow guy. Can't check battery, can't jump battery. Congratulations to Toyota for running an excellently helpful program.6)LDA, Lane departure assist is the biggest blunder Toyota has committed. Defeating LDA took some time.
After driving for 50+ years, LDA forcibly takes control from my highly experienced hands and I am thrown in the harm's way. A steel, 55 gallon drum, in the early dawn hours in the middle of the freeway in Orange County, on 57 freeway. Saw it at the last second, I had one second to safely change lane but LDA took control of my steering and forced me back in the lane. I thought I will be dead in a few seconds. Diabolic Toyota incompetent programmers are the only reason I had a near heart attack. Hey Toyota, did you try Lane Departure in different situations? How stupid you want to be. You have earned plenty of disrespect from me. After I pay off 82 grand, did I only buy near disasters and headaches?

I'm not sure why this is in the fuel thread but...

1) It's a port option. Additionally Bluetooth can be spotty and qi charging is worthless on some phones.

2) Make sure you're not wearing polarized glasses. Otherwise adjust the height of the HUD. It may be fading in and out of the top and bottom boundaries.

3) I have been through every settings menu in the vehicle and have yet to find one that requires turning off the vehicle to get out of

4) I haven't experienced this but I also always leave it on auto. Make sure your ventilated seats or cool box aren't on.

5) That sucks. Only legit problem I see in your post.

6) You can force it over. You can also just turn that function off.

EOD Guy · Aug 1, 2024

FarooqMCSE said:
Hi all,
Need to report a few operational issues with my mid tier Landy with premium package.1) Four skinny red cables were forcibly sold to me for $70. When Landy has Blue Tooth for connectivity, why do I need cables for connectivity. Then when I have Qi wireless charging provided, why do I need any left over cables from previous generation. This is rip off, Toyota, if your eyes are open. 2) HUD disappears and a few other display items. Barely have seen HUD 3 times in 7 days. D
Promise, I did not touch anything to be deprived of HUD. Programming of HUD was assigned to junior high kids so their incompetent debacle clearly shows. 3)When you are in the settings, many pages have no way of going back or canceling. You end up turning off engine to get rid of some pages. Great job Toyota.
Then pages and settings are not intuitive or user friendly. It requires effort to make it intuitive, only if programming kids have heard these words.4)Fan speed lowest setting is 1. You can not turn off fan. Even if you are cold fan will blow air on you. Highly undesirable. 5)Dealer installed option, alarm did cause my car to be totally inoperative for 15 days. RoadSide guys come but was shocked to hear that I am only a tow guy. Can't check battery, can't jump battery. Congratulations to Toyota for running an excellently helpful program.6)LDA, Lane departure assist is the biggest blunder Toyota has committed. Defeating LDA took some time.
After driving for 50+ years, LDA forcibly takes control from my highly experienced hands and I am thrown in the harm's way. A steel, 55 gallon drum, in the early dawn hours in the middle of the freeway in Orange County, on 57 freeway. Saw it at the last second, I had one second to safely change lane but LDA took control of my steering and forced me back in the lane. I thought I will be dead in a few seconds. Diabolic Toyota incompetent programmers are the only reason I had a near heart attack. Hey Toyota, did you try Lane Departure in different situations? How stupid you want to be. You have earned plenty of disrespect from me. After I pay off 82 grand, did I only buy near disasters and headaches?

Not trying to offend you and to answer some of your questions...... While I agree the cables are a rip off, but some folks have passengers and charge cables are handy on long trips (not 70 dollars handy tho').

I found lane departure annoying at first and it did take a small amount of effort to switch lanes, but after 100 miles of getting used to it, I kind of like it.

I would take it back to the dealer and have them remove the alarm.

It's a shame you're having so many issues with your new purchase.

Captain Trips · Aug 1, 2024

FarooqMCSE said:
Hi all,
Need to report a few operational issues with my mid tier Landy with premium package.1) Four skinny red cables were forcibly sold to me for $70. When Landy has Blue Tooth for connectivity, why do I need cables for connectivity. Then when I have Qi wireless charging provided, why do I need any left over cables from previous generation. This is rip off, Toyota, if your eyes are open. 2) HUD disappears and a few other display items. Barely have seen HUD 3 times in 7 days. D
Promise, I did not touch anything to be deprived of HUD. Programming of HUD was assigned to junior high kids so their incompetent debacle clearly shows. 3)When you are in the settings, many pages have no way of going back or canceling. You end up turning off engine to get rid of some pages. Great job Toyota.
Then pages and settings are not intuitive or user friendly. It requires effort to make it intuitive, only if programming kids have heard these words.4)Fan speed lowest setting is 1. You can not turn off fan. Even if you are cold fan will blow air on you. Highly undesirable. 5)Dealer installed option, alarm did cause my car to be totally inoperative for 15 days. RoadSide guys come but was shocked to hear that I am only a tow guy. Can't check battery, can't jump battery. Congratulations to Toyota for running an excellently helpful program.6)LDA, Lane departure assist is the biggest blunder Toyota has committed. Defeating LDA took some time.
After driving for 50+ years, LDA forcibly takes control from my highly experienced hands and I am thrown in the harm's way. A steel, 55 gallon drum, in the early dawn hours in the middle of the freeway in Orange County, on 57 freeway. Saw it at the last second, I had one second to safely change lane but LDA took control of my steering and forced me back in the lane. I thought I will be dead in a few seconds. Diabolic Toyota incompetent programmers are the only reason I had a near heart attack. Hey Toyota, did you try Lane Departure in different situations? How stupid you want to be. You have earned plenty of disrespect from me. After I pay off 82 grand, did I only buy near disasters and headaches?

1. I agree that the cables are a rip off. A lot of times if you catch your vehicle in the build process, you could have the dealer drop off things like this from the port installed options.

2. & 3. I have not had any problems with the hood or from escaping pages that I do not want to make changes on. There is a back button on the left steering wheel control. Also in the multimedia system, there is generally a back button in the upper left of the page. Time spent in the Manual will pay off dividends.

4. As mentioned before turn off the cool box and turn off the seat ventilation and you may have more control over the fan and air conditioner.

5. As stated before these dealer are installed options are causing problems and I would recommend having them uninstalled.

6. Lane departure can be disabled. While it’s on, it is easy to defeat it. Also one big hint, use a turn signal like you should, and you won’t have as many problems with the lane departure. Once again, I refer you to the Manual.

Not wanting to argue or be insulting but time spent in the Manuel pays off. Manually going through all the settings in the vehicle well familiarize yourself with this and make driving more enjoyable. Just about everything mentioned here our features on just about all Toyotas right now and other makes and models. I think a little research in your next purchase may help you better.

Tripod1404 · Aug 1, 2024

Fort7365 said:
I'm not sure why this is in the fuel thread but...

1) It's a port option. Additionally Bluetooth can be spotty and qi charging is worthless on some phones.

2) Make sure you're not wearing polarized glasses. Otherwise adjust the height of the HUD. It may be fading in and out of the top and bottom boundaries.

3) I have been through every settings menu in the vehicle and have yet to find one that requires turning off the vehicle to get out of

4) I haven't experienced this but I also always leave it on auto. Make sure your ventilated seats or cool box aren't on.

5) That sucks. Only legit problem I see in your post.

6) You can force it over. You can also just turn that function off.

I am almost certain that OPs HUD is not correctly adjusted and is basically out of site. Mine was also way out of site initially, and I had to adjust it. HUD position is linked to your driver profile, so if you don’t save it, it reverts back to the previous setting on the next start.

And yeah, there are no options that you need to restart the car for, there is a “back” button that takes you back to the previous menu.

TrailWhale · Aug 1, 2024

Not defending the $70 USB cables, but I will defend the use of USB cables - Charging via USB cable is better for your phone, and far more efficient and faster. Carplay over USB is also more reliable. I still plug in on most drives over 5min. (full disclosure i don't have wireless charging on my non-premium, and I really did not want it.)

Regarding the fan speed - the little knobs on the vents can be turned clockwise to reduce air flow. I agree that fan speed 1 is still pretty strong, but you can fine tune with the knob. Off is still an option, but i assume you mean you want a lower fan speed than 1. Personally i put it on front windshield with speed when i just want low speed air in mild or low temperatures and not a fan directly on my face.

FarooqMCSE · Aug 1, 2024

Hi all contemporaries, specially Fort7365, The EOD Guy, Captain Trips, Tripod1404 and TrailWhale.
Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Please don't get me wrong. I am a die hard Toyota fan. This J 250 is not my first Land Cruiser. 1)I do not wear polarized glasses.2)after some digging, I did turn off Lane Departure. 3)My cruiser did not start for 9 days at my home, then towed on July 22nd to dealership in VictorVille, saw 13 additional miles on it. Then picked up my cruiser on Saturday, July 27th. Do not know what they did to the dealer installed alarm, but no more starting issues are faced. The reason I went 52 miles away from my home is because Costco sent me there. Thanks for pointing out, however I was talking about LDA in an emergency. Luckily, I did not hit the steel drum. I did fight with LDA to swerve out and swerve back in the lane to avoid hitting steel drum. The reason I buy and keep SUVs is because of debris on freeways. Then my manual is with me all the time. I frequently study and read and take notes.
Finally, I am happy with my purchase. I had 2 dozen coworkers came out together and praised it at my workplace. Best of all, my wife loves the Meteor Shower color and looks of it.

NoMe cruiser · Aug 1, 2024

FarooqMCSE said:
Hi all,
Need to report a few operational issues with my mid tier Landy with premium package.1) Four skinny red cables were forcibly sold to me for $70. When Landy has Blue Tooth for connectivity, why do I need cables for connectivity. Then when I have Qi wireless charging provided, why do I need any left over cables from previous generation. This is rip off, Toyota, if your eyes are open. 2) HUD disappears and a few other display items. Barely have seen HUD 3 times in 7 days. D
Promise, I did not touch anything to be deprived of HUD. Programming of HUD was assigned to junior high kids so their incompetent debacle clearly shows. 3)When you are in the settings, many pages have no way of going back or canceling. You end up turning off engine to get rid of some pages. Great job Toyota.
Then pages and settings are not intuitive or user friendly. It requires effort to make it intuitive, only if programming kids have heard these words.4)Fan speed lowest setting is 1. You can not turn off fan. Even if you are cold fan will blow air on you. Highly undesirable. 5)Dealer installed option, alarm did cause my car to be totally inoperative for 15 days. RoadSide guys come but was shocked to hear that I am only a tow guy. Can't check battery, can't jump battery. Congratulations to Toyota for running an excellently helpful program.6)LDA, Lane departure assist is the biggest blunder Toyota has committed. Defeating LDA took some time.
After driving for 50+ years, LDA forcibly takes control from my highly experienced hands and I am thrown in the harm's way. A steel, 55 gallon drum, in the early dawn hours in the middle of the freeway in Orange County, on 57 freeway. Saw it at the last second, I had one second to safely change lane but LDA took control of my steering and forced me back in the lane. I thought I will be dead in a few seconds. Diabolic Toyota incompetent programmers are the only reason I had a near heart attack. Hey Toyota, did you try Lane Departure in different situations? How stupid you want to be. You have earned plenty of disrespect from me. After I pay off 82 grand, did I only buy near disasters and headaches?

Don’t hold back… tell us how you really feel.

FarooqMCSE · Aug 2, 2024

Captain Trips, you are smart and helpful. Lifted my center console Right arm rest and refrigerator fan was running. Thanks for getting my attention to fan speed.
Also many thanks to TrailWhale for pointing to the little knows on the vents. Minimized those turning clockwise and the issue is history. You are smart, awesomely awesome and so helpful. Thank you buddy.

FarooqMCSE · Aug 2, 2024

Sorry, knobs,

Nick · Sep 1, 2024

TheBat said:
My sales guy told me that Toyota Canada is different and that premium is not specified by them. I showed him the sticker inside the gas door that says Premium Fuel. He quickly shifted gears to saying yeah I guess for as little miles as you put on it's cheap insurance and he would buy premium.

Now my truck was sitting inside the showroom and the tank was already full. I know that it is the sales person's job to take it and fill the tank at my dealership. So what do you think was in my tank at delivery? I didn't ask. My salesperson is a great kid, I really like him, and I'm not losing any sleep over what might have been in the tank that I've already refilled twice with Premium

I never asked the sales people anything except technical questions like how does something work, etc.
I did ask mine this time if it required premium fuel because I usually ask that question before I make a purchase so I don't make that purchase but this time I forgot to even though I thought of it before hand. He did tell me it took premium fuel.
I told him that would've been a deal killer. I would've just got a lesser model for the payment differences. No biggie for now but I can't wait till I get that thing broken in because the gas mileage is horrible.

Nick · Sep 1, 2024

Tripod1404 said:
I mean identical engine/powertrains do not necessarily use use the same compression profile. Turbo on the LC may be tuned to be more aggressive compared to Tacoma and 4runner, which would necessitate higher octane . Also, the user manual clearly states that using non-premium can damage the engine, so I don't think it is purely for performance (page 641).

View attachment 5585

I wonder if you could get a dealership to tune it to 87? I will have to ask.
It wasn't that long ago where you could buy a chip for about 300 bucks and replace the chip in your vehicle but you had to send yours back to them I guess they return them. I don't imagine you can do that anymore and if you could would it void the warranty?
Someone somewhere knows the answer.

Nick · Sep 1, 2024

Captain Trips said:
Just more evidence that these sales people do not know what the hell they are talking about. In all honesty, we really don’t need these sales people. All we need is a secretary to do the paperwork.

It's so funny how I teach them stuff. I'll ask him something like what's that for. And I get the answer I don't know and then I tell them. Or I'll ask him does it do this or have that or this or that with I don't know answers. I wind up demoing the vehicles to them more than they can do to me.
I'll ask them to demo the car for me.
Well it's got all the safety stuff and airbags everywhere and it's made safe and the glass of safety glass and this is how you turn on the radio it's got power seats and air conditioning rubber floor mats which is really nice so you don't get your vehicle dirty.

Super Confused in Fuel needed for 2024 Land Cruiser.

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