Fuel Tank options for Land Cruiser 250/ GX550

[AlexGates]

Sounds like you have not spend much time off road driving if you expect to get 250 miles out of a tank.

Or there is an interruption

I don’t believe the “local regulations” being responsible for the fuel tank capacity. The GX550 has a 21gal. Remember when Toyota put a 20-something gallon tank in the Tundra, all the US brands had 30+, Toyota finally came around.

X5, which I was shopping the LC against, is 25gal. Small fuel tanks are a Toyota thing, except in AUS and ME because they recognize the long distances there.

If I’m going on a road trip, I’m taking my F150, it gets better mpg out of a V8 anyway. Love my LC though.

 

[what_have_they_done]

Just like downsizing the engine, not directly but the vehicle is lighter and therefore burning less fuel in the testing standards. There are a ton of tiny little fuel efficiency things they do now that add up to a barely measurable amount. For example, I remember reading that the front skirt spoiler in the Tacomas increase fuel economy by 0.2 mpg. I’m sure the ones that come on the Land Cruiser are even less beneficial. From that perspective, I can see why Toyota kept the fuel tank small.

Who knows though, it’s all speculation.

A Sequoia is 14” longer than the LC. Too cumbersome for city street parking. Also, don’t like the styling or the part time 4wd. And I trailer less than 5% of the miles I drive. I just want my exact car with a longer range bro and I’m going to get it when available. Simple as that. You can’t convince me otherwise.

Their gas tank size decision was just a specific range number most likely.

What car did you trailer with before?

 

[D-mac]

Small fuel tanks are a Toyota thing, except in AUS and ME because they recognize the long distances there.

Toyota’s home market LC250s have bigger gas&diesel tanks too. Also their engines aren’t hybrids which should make some more room.
Toyota could certify the gas engine JDM LC250 for the NA market with its 20+ year old 160hp 2TR—FE non turbo 4 cylinder engine at a lower price but doubtful many would buy it.

 

[what_have_they_done]

Seems reasonable to me

They cut about 7 gallons which is around 50lb. It’s highly unlikely it was driven by emissions.

 

[PBrad]

Their gas tank size decision was just a specific range number most likely.

What car did you trailer with before?

Tundra with the 5.7. It was a 2011 rock warrior I sold in 2016 when I moved to the city. Shared my wife’s car since then, an 07 CRV, then an Evoque, which sucked, then got a 23 CRV which is amazing for what it is. Between my motorcycles, Turo and renting U-Haul trailers I could get around just fine. It just sucked, especially as the kids started popping out so finally bought a new vehicle, so happy I did, don’t care I have to pay $1000/mo to park.

 

[MSINAL]

The only USA regulation that possibly caused the smaller tank decision and other weight savings is the 7700 GVWR weight limit for class B driver license (passenger cars). I cant think of any other reg besides this.

 

[Winchester44]

https://www.transportation.gov/mission/sustainability/corporate-average-fuel-economy-cafe-standards

The Costs and Benefits of CAFE Standards

www.mackinac.org

Downsizing and adding a turbo can increase efficiency under ideal, low load conditions like those in the EPA testing standards, the problem is real world economy can drop more quickly if have a heavy foot or are under a higher load as under boost it’s actually worse than a N.A. engine but the EPA testing doesn’t account for that… here’s a good explanation:


In short downsizing improves the stated EPA fuel economy but the real world tests can often vary significantly from that but manufacturers have little choice since they need to meet the CAFE standards.

This is why, for example, adding all terrains, will drop fuel mileage more than in a N.A. motor and also why those who have a gentle foot have significantly better fuel mileage than those who have a heavy foot. In the past, these differences were minimal. Driving under boost hurts fuel mileage a lot

What he said.

 

[D-mac]

The only USA regulation that possibly caused the smaller tank decision and other weight savings is the 7700 GVWR weight limit for class B driver license (passenger cars). I cant think of any other reg besides this.

Space needs for hybrid powertrain+ vehicle fuel tank crash safety regs seem likely to me. 49 CFR 571.301

 

[Winchester44]

That’s twice that you’ve said that ’local regulations’ are why we got a smaller fuel tank.

Please elaborate..

CAFE standards. As others have pointed out the EPA test methodology to estimate mpg has changed little since the 70’s and has little bearing in reality of true mpg. Weight/GWVR is a big input used to estimate mpg. I think one is correct in saying that minor weight changes doesn’t affect steady highway mpg or sitting on a dyno. However dyno one input, weight is another, emissions at the pipe another, emissions as the car drives by a sensor another and so on. I think people have in their mind that EPA just drives the vehicle on a dyno or or just drives it and writes down the mpg results and that is what goes on the window sticker. Thats not the case at all. It’s some lab dyno, some driving and then a whole lot of outdated formulas that spits out an Mpg number guaranteed to be wrong. Then the manufacturer has to consider how one model affects the entire fleet they make. This is also likely driving the “Premium Fuel Required”

No other country tests cars this way. The local regulations are the problem.

 

[Winchester44]

Space needs for hybrid powertrain+ vehicle fuel tank crash safety regs seem likely to me. 49 CFR 571.301

Do you know what portion of the hybrid powertrain conflicts with the tanks location? Muffler system?

 

[D-mac]

Do you know what portion of the hybrid powertrain conflicts with the tanks location? Muffler system?

Probably need 3-D modeling to figure out how many gallons are lost to hybrid drivetrains and also knowledge of Toyota crash testing of fuel tank integrity.

 

[what_have_they_done]

Probably need 3-D modeling to figure out how many gallons are lost to hybrid drivetrains and also knowledge of Toyota crash testing of fuel tank integrity.

Hybrid is a pancake between engine and transmission, then some extras in the engine bay + battery pack in the back in the interior. Hybrid dos not affect space by the gas tank at all.

They do sandwich muffler differently for trims in Arabic countries that come with dual tanks. Potentially frame has additional mounts.

 

[what_have_they_done]

What he said.

Gas tank size is not directly related to emissions, it’s just weight reduction that helps with EPA credits.

It looks like toyota was looking to cut weight everywhere possible. Just a cost cutting not really a local regulation limitation by any means.

Looks like toyota might have went a little to aggressive with gas tank and could have installed 24gal with no issue. LC250 is built for Africa and Australia rough terrain, but then trimmed for USA target customer who is a city slicker with kids who goes camping 4 times a year or does some minor non pavement and anything around that persona. And it looks like they did good since it’s selling very well.

 

[EOD Guy]

Probably need 3-D modeling to figure out how many gallons are lost to hybrid drivetrains and also knowledge of Toyota crash testing of fuel tank integrity.

The main difference between the GX 550 tank (non-hybrid) and the LC's tank is a clearance nook for the rear suspension 4-link mount that's molded into the rear most end of the LC's tank. It clears the transmission just fine.

 

[shwazz714]

They cut about 7 gallons which is around 50lb. It’s highly unlikely it was driven by emissions.

I was more referring to his statement on liking the car and wanting to keep it…

 

[Winchester44]

Probably need 3-D modeling to figure out how many gallons are lost to hybrid drivetrains and also knowledge of Toyota crash testing of fuel tank integrity.

From putting it up on a lift all I see is the muffler conflicting with sub tank. Others have said the main tank has substantial room around it which helps explains why GX tank is 18% larger

 

[Winchester44]

Gas tank size is not directly related to emissions, it’s just weight reduction that helps with EPA credits.

It looks like toyota was looking to cut weight everywhere possible. Just a cost cutting not really a local regulation limitation by any means.

Looks like toyota might have went a little to aggressive with gas tank and could have installed 24gal with no issue. LC250 is built for Africa and Australia rough terrain, but then trimmed for USA target customer who is a city slicker with kids who goes camping 4 times a year or does some minor non pavement and anything around that persona. And it looks like they did good since it’s selling very well.

Sorry you and I are likely talking about the same thing local regulations = epa credits

 

[D-mac]

Gas tank size is not directly related to emissions, it’s just weight reduction that helps with EPA credits.

It looks like toyota was looking to cut weight everywhere possible. Just a cost cutting not really a local regulation limitation by any means.

Then there should be more aluminum body panels (besides the hood) like the LC300/Lexus LX have. This would save a lot more than 50 pounds.
Also, without the engineering data or analysis on how the tanks are crash tested, we probably don't know what other safety issues there are for alternative fuel tank designs. This is probably why there aren't plenty of US market aftermarket fuel tanks to choose from almost a year after the LC250 was introduced if there is an easy/obvious solution that Toyota's team of engineers missed. I'm no engineer, but I'm guessing since the main high voltage battery and 12v battery are both in the rear of the vehicle, the fuel tank needs to be well protected.

 

[ryanjl]

How long are your off-roads with no gas stations?

There are places you can go in the Southwest US that have greater than 250 miles between gas stations. Far greater.

And the point the post you were responding to was making is that, when driving off-road, the MPG isn't nearly as good. Expect maybe 10 to 15 mpg, if even that, which takes the 250-mile range and drives it into the dirt. If it's a low-range heavy excursion, sub 10mpg would be expected.

Even then, a lot of the off-roading in the southwest has a "better safe than sorry" mentality. As in, you can probably make it on a lot of trails with the stock tank and a 5-gallon buffer by way of a jerry-can or rotopax, but the risk is that you are absolutely fucked if you can't make it. As in, it's not uncommon for people to die being stranded somewhere in the desert southwest. Depending on the time of year you go, some trails have decent traffic, so you can rely on a stranger lending you a few gallons. If you don't want to be a leach, or if you go somewhere less-travelled, it's on you to make sure you get out alive.

 

[Markarian421]

There are places you can go in the Southwest US that have greater than 250 miles between gas stations. Far greater.

And the point the post you were responding to was making is that, when driving off-road, the MPG isn't nearly as good. Expect maybe 10 to 15 mpg, if even that, which takes the 250-mile range and drives it into the dirt. If it's a low-range heavy excursion, sub 10mpg would be expected.

Even then, a lot of the off-roading in the southwest has a "better safe than sorry" mentality. As in, you can probably make it on a lot of trails with the stock tank and a 5-gallon buffer by way of a jerry-can or rotopax, but the risk is that you are absolutely fucked if you can't make it. As in, it's not uncommon for people to die being stranded somewhere in the desert southwest. Depending on the time of year you go, some trails have decent traffic, so you can rely on a stranger lending you a few gallons. If you don't want to be a leach, or if you go somewhere less-travelled, it's on you to make sure you get out alive.

This happens far too often in Death Valley. People don't realize the scale of the place, or go off on unpaved roads, there's no cell coverage, you run out of gas and it's over. Summer and winter especially. There are a few places to get gas in the park, but you've already driven many miles before you get to most of the park borders.

"Kelleher’s death is the second fatality reported in June in the national park. John McCarry, 69, of Long Beach, Calif., was found dead June 1 in Panamint Valley. Park officials are also still searching for Peter Harootunian, who has been missing since his vehicle was noticed to be abandoned May 23. The man has not been found, and the search for him has been scaled back to limited and continuous, the officials said.

It is not known exactly how many people have died in Death Valley. Last year, two campers went missing in Death Valley after leaving a note in their car: “Two flat tires, headed to Mormon Point, have three days’ worth of water.” When authorities found them, Emily Henkel, then 27, was injured, and Alexander Lofgren, a 32-year-old Army veteran and congressional staffer, was dead."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/06/17/death-valley-death/