Land Cruiser Target Market

[Nuke]

Been giving it a lot of thought, and considering that effectively only two models will be available, the target market of the 2024 Land Cruiser are the Wranglers and Broncos, but with a bit more highway refinement, at least in the "Land Cruiser" trim. Have never ridden in a late-model Wrangler or Bronco, but the reviews mention how noisy they are at highway speeds. This should not be the case with the LC, and thankfully so. If one wishes to travel a distant piece with family or friends to an off-roading location, at least presumably they will be able to carry on a conversation without screaming. Of course, the LC cannot be "stripped down" as with the Wrangler and Bronco, but once one is caught in the rain with the top/doors off, well, we get the picture. Choking on trail dust is not any fun either. However, at the nearby St. Anthony Dunes on a good day, I would much prefer the competition. Of course, another option for the distant off-roading missions is a 4Runner, actually a bargain vehicle which will last until eternity, if one can stomach the fuel economy. If money were no object, then the GX550, as it comes in six trims, including two Overtrail with off-roading tires and other features, which sadly appear not to be offered with the LC. Just my two cents...

 

[Ottosails]

Some great points to ponder Nuke. One could potentially add the new Land Rover Defender (entry level $57K) to the competition but it doesn’t have the reliability of the LC and then there are maintenance costs to consider.

Agreed that the lack of “stripability“ compared to Bronco and Wrangler could be a big factor for some, especially the younger carefree crowd. If one has not owned a Wrangler or Bronco and taken the time to take doors and tops off - It‘s not as effortless as TV ads would have you believe. When I was younger and more carefree, my top an doors were off all the time. These days I‘ll take semi quiet ride and a good size sunroof for my open air motoring so I can close things up quickly when a thunderstorm hits in the mountains or running to the store…

I‘m also curious to see where the new 4Runner is going to fit in the equation but then again I have never owned an LC or a Bronco .

 

[FJ432]

If the planets align next year I will be leaving my 2 door Ford Bronco Badlands for the Land Cruiser.

I use to own an FJ Cruiser and a Rubicon. It was from these past vehicles that I learned that IFS is the way to go for a daily driver/part time explorer. The solid axle of the Rubicon was just to rough to drive on the daily commute but I loved taking the top off. The FJ Cruiser had many faults but overall my all time favorite Toyota I ever driven.

I signed up for the Bronco the first night knowing that it had the drivability of the FJC and the ability for top off driving of the Rubicon. I currently have 18k miles on my Badlands and it has been a blast. The 2.7 has plenty of power, the shorten wheel base makes it agile and (knock on wood) has given me no issues. If I could I will try to hang onto this but financially it may be tough. The worst part of owning the Bronco was the wait as Ford had COVID and supply issues. As a Toyota Loyalist I have to say that my Bronco experience has been a pleasant surprise.

The only question mark I have is the powertrain of the new LC. Toyota's all in approach by placing in such important vehicles has me less concerned but I really want to drive one.

 

[Cold Iron]

There is a small part of me that wonders if they aren't targeting those of us that had a LC in the 70's and 80's. Seems like most of us on here even though it is early are "more mature" LOL. But there wouldn't be enough of us to create a market for a LC, at least I don't believe so.

Interesting points brought up by everyone so far. I went through the eating dust and sound debate with the UTV. So ended up with a Polaris NorthStar with full enclosed cab including heat and AC. And rides better off road than my Taco and friends FJ. MUCH better. The sound in them is loud enough that you are screaming to talk to a passanger. In large part because of all the plastic and sound vibrations. It was quieter just rolling down the windows, all plastic is that bad. So spent a lot of time researching and installing sound dampening and deadening materials. Huge improvement.

In my research on reducing sound I discovered that is what you paying for with a Lexus, they do the installation at the factory. The GX550 is spendy but I have a better appreciation of why now. Still a lot of money especially for taking off road and getting natures pinstriping. I have concerns that the 1958 model will be loud inside due to all the plastic. Besides 1958 is the year I was born, that is older than dirt

I know of 2 people that picked up new 4Runners in the last couple of months. The driving factor for both was the existing V6 engine. Like Nuke said it will last until eternity. I haven't ruled out a 4Runner yet. My Taco has the same engine and while it is 10 years old it only has 87K on it. Heck it is just getting broke in, and is paid for.

I also want to drive the new powertrain before committing. Will be towing ~3K pounds on occasion and want to see how it handles that. And what about a tow package? Guess new Tacoma's don't have tow packages anymore so they may have gone the way of the doodoo bird. But I'll take a larger alternator and tranny cooler in a heartbeat if available.

A lot of unknowns yet. Logically smart money would be just get a V6 4Runner now. But then I'm sure that I would be kicking myself for years down the road for not getting a LC. Most of it is romanticism from years long since gone by. Still they were some good years and memories. I've always said purchasing a vehicle should never be an emotional decision. Then they announce the LC...

 

[Nuke]

Yep, the smart money would be to purchase a 4Runner NOW, prior to phase-out. However, our daughter purchased a Limited a couple of years ago, and I cannot get over how loud it is compared to our recently-sold (A BIG mistake) 2005 4Runner Limited with only 50K miles logged. With the V8 and port injection, it was much quieter than the daughter's machine. Cannot recall, but it seems the new Taco has standard trailer brakes? Possibly I am thinking of the Land Cruiser? Last, but not least, sure wish there was a Lexus dealer close, and I would be spending the kid's inheritance on a GX550. In fact, that still may happen.

 

[El Chorizo]

I'm torn myself between the GX550 and the Land Cruiser. I probably won't be able to decide until I see the price difference. That will be my determining factor.

 

[Nuke]

I'm torn myself between the GX550 and the Land Cruiser. I probably won't be able to decide until I see the price difference. That will be my determining factor.

I'm expecting we will see in the neighborhood of 10K more for a comparable GX550. However, it will have much smoother power with the V6, and for sure better sound deadening. On the downside, dismal fuel economy and will thirst for 91 octane. It seems I saw an estimate of 16 MPG overall? Some are saying 26-27 MPG with the LC. Not a trivial difference. And, call me crazy, but would much prefer the SofTex interior of the Land Cruiser (on the "Land Cruiser" trim level) to leather on the GX550. Decisions, decisions!

 

[MJE]

I probably am the target market for this car. Needing, or wanting at least, to trade up from my Bronco Sport. As cool as the full-size Bronco (the usual ‘upgrade’ path for BS owners) is, and I would surely like one, with the removable roof I just think it’s not enough of a highway car to be a trade up. My goal is something closer to my old (07) F150 that I travelled the continent in. I wish Ford did a fixed roof Bronco, or at least offered the Everest, as a competitor. But since they don’t, my choice is really a Ranger if I stay Ford, or looking at Toyota’s many TNGA-F offerings.

If I go Toyota though they don’t even make the choice easy, since I could do LC or go GX. I’m enough of a traditionalist to appreciate the GX power train, but it’s hard to ignore the economy of the hybrid LC. If they offered that in a GX I might just be sold. Since I’m unlikely to make a decision soon enough to land a First Edition LC. I do like the Defender, which seems to be our city’s latest status symbol, but I can’t see how it offers the long term value of a Toyota, or Ford for that matter, offering.

 

[Nuke]

Lexus has said the 2.4L Hybrid Max powertrain will be coming in the future to the GX. How soon is anybody's guess. Surely it will demand premium fuel, but still a lot better than the V6, which also wants 91 octane. However, retired and only averaging roughly 3000 miles/year, why should I be concerned? Add to that the factor of battery chemistry will be vastly changed in the near future, would a hybrid be wise if it were to be a "keeper"? The batteries are not cheap to replace, roughly $6K plus labor on a recent video viewed. That would purchase a LOT of fuel! And, the V6 would be one smooth-running powertrain with the 10-speed auto. More of a road machine than even the LC. A concern would be servicing the turbos, as on the Tundra it requires removing the cab.

 

[MJE]

Lexus has said the 2.4L Hybrid Max powertrain will be coming in the future to the GX. How soon is anybody's guess. Surely it will demand premium fuel, but still a lot better than the V6, which also wants 91 octane. However, retired and only averaging roughly 3000 miles/year, why should I be concerned? Add to that the factor of battery chemistry will be vastly changed in the near future, would a hybrid be wise if it were to be a "keeper"? The batteries are not cheap to replace, roughly $6K plus labor on a recent video viewed. That would purchase a LOT of fuel!

I can’t argue your way of thinking, especially as I’m not convinced electric cars are our future. Perhaps I don’t know enough about hybrids, but I’m assuming for a keeper, if the battery goes out, you just run it like a normal IC car, with corresponding reductions in power & economy?

I currently drive about 15K miles a year & hope to drive more like 20K miles a year with travel, so my case might lean a little more towards the hybrid than yours at 3K/yr. But your point stands. A $6K battery replacement buys A LOT of fuel!

 

[Nuke]

MJE, that is a great question, i.e. will a hybrid vehicle continue normally on the ICE if the hybrid battery dies? Everything is so interlocked/integrated on the hybrid vehicles. Of course our Highlander would not, but the LC is an entirely different system. For instance, the motor/generator on the LC is sandwiched between the engine and transmission, so does it use it to start/stop the engine? Seems like I read it does on the Tundra. Albeit the Tundra also has a traditional starter which is used under certain conditions.

 

[MJE]

MJE, that is a great question, i.e. will a hybrid vehicle continue normally on the ICE if the hybrid battery dies? Everything is so interlocked/integrated on the hybrid vehicles. Of course our Highlander would not, but the LC is an entirely different system. For instance, the motor/generator on the LC is sandwiched between the engine and transmission, so does it use it to start/stop the engine? Seems like I read it does on the Tundra. Albeit the Tundra also has a traditional starter which is used under certain conditions.

Thanks for the insight. I’m hardly familiar with hybrid systems, for me just considering one is a step I wouldn’t have taken just a short time ago. But Toyota’s systems have been developed over 20 years so should be fine. I don’t know much about how they function though, so didn’t realize the hybrid system might be used to start the vehicle which would then be a showstopper. I did some quick googling on it, but even then I’m not getting particularly clear answers. I could believe though it might not work, because as you say, everything nowadays is so interlocked & integrated. But then in the case of the LC (or GX once it’s added) if I like the car well enough to keep it for a decade & 200k miles then it might be worth the battery replacement at the time just because.

 

[Nuke]

if I like the car well enough to keep it for a decade & 200k miles then it might be worth the battery replacement at the time just because.

You should be safe for a decade, as most hybrid batteries are warrantied for that time period, of course depending on the miles accumulated. Probably varies by battery type (NiMH in the LC, a good thing in my opinion) Speaking of battery types, that chemistry is evolving VERY fast! I would venture to guess at 10 years the NiMH battery will be obsolete, possibly not even available?

 

[MJE]

You should be safe for a decade, as most hybrid batteries are warrantied for that time period, of course depending on the miles accumulated. Probably varies by battery type (NiMH in the LC, a good thing in my opinion) Speaking of battery types, that chemistry is evolving VERY fast! I would venture to guess at 10 years the NiMH battery will be obsolete, possibly not even available?

Interesting thought, I hadn’t really been following the chemistry developments at all. I wonder now, in a decade’s time, woudl there be aftermarket choices as repair parts but using the new chemistry? Not sure where this is all going. But had a discussion with a coworker one day who feels a Toyota could even be a 30 year vehicle. I’m not sure we’re there anymore with advancements, but I keep thinking if there’s any vehicle that could do that, it’d be Toyota.

 

[Nuke]

My apology for the poor resolution, but a screen capture.
The entire YouTube video is here. Admittedly, sort of dry stuff.

 

[Wanderlost]

Great discussion and good points by all on a variety of topics. Based on my current observations, I think the new LC 250 replaces the current 4Runner market share.

The LC 250 powertrain technology appears to be an acceptable trade-off to meet EPA emissions/efficiency requirements. NiMH and Li-ion batteries have strengths and weaknesses, and NiMH batteries are the optimal choice for the LC 250 in my opinion. I’m not convinced the auto industry is in a good position to manage Li-ion battery technology life cycle requirements due to end-of-life Li-ion battery characteristics that may limit widespread adoption required to bring costs down.

 

[lcfanboy]

I think another interesting market segment will be those who have loyally followed Toyota for a while (perhaps owning a 4Runner or FJ) and are ready to 'upgrade' to a slightly more expensive car that is way more in reach than the prior LCs have been. But not looking for a family-focused crossover per se.

 

[Nuke]

I think another interesting market segment will be those who have loyally followed Toyota for a while (perhaps owning a 4Runner or FJ) and are ready to 'upgrade' to a slightly more expensive car that is way more in reach than the prior LCs have been. But not looking for a family-focused crossover per se.

Other than fuel economy and slightly more tech, I would not consider the new LC a step up from a 4Runner. Of course, no test drives have been posted as yet, so the verdict is still out. Definitely not the 1958 variant...

 

[lcfanboy]

I definitely think it is, unless you're only comparing off-road ability. The new LC interior looks significantly updated compared to the current 4Runner's (option for ventilated seats, larger screen and updated dash, USB-C ports, etc), will likely drive better on the road thanks to the new platform, is larger (but better MPG) than the 4Runner, will tow an extra 1,000 lbs and have full-time 4WD vs part-time.

 

[Nuke]

I definitely think it is, unless you're only comparing off-road ability. The new LC interior looks significantly updated compared to the current 4Runner's (option for ventilated seats, larger screen and updated dash, USB-C ports, etc), will likely drive better on the road thanks to the new platform, is larger (but better MPG) than the 4Runner, will tow an extra 1,000 lbs and have full-time 4WD vs part-time.

Our 2005 Limited had full-time 4WD, and with the 4.7 V8 was one quiet-running vehicle. However, as mentioned, the verdict is still out, and am anxiously awaiting some driving reviews and a personal test drive. For sure, it will cost more than a comparable 4Runner. Sadly, no 3rd-row option, presumably as a result of the location of the battery.