Increase Range with Bigger Better Battery Instead of Bigger Fuek Tank?

[McCloud_Rainbow]

With all the talk about MPG, range anxiety and fuel tank capacity, why not look at the electric side of the Land Cruiser for improvement? Seems like solutions might be easier to find and implement and would provide more benefits than just a few more gallons of gas onboard. I was originally getting a Rivian R1S with its 450 mile electric range…until I realized I would have to sit at the charger for at least an hour to top up the batteries for full range. No thanks! Happy I bought the LC instead.

Here is my thesis…

• 1.87 kWh NiMH stock Land Cruiser traction battery - underpowered and old chemistry = lower range and less usage
• Tesla Powerwall 3 weighs 200 lbs and has a 13 kWh LiFePO4 battery in it and is about the size of the current LC battery
• Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are great….they don’t overheat and explode like Li Ion batteries and I bet a LiFePO4 battery the size of the current LC NiMH battery would have 5x the capacity (8-10 kWh).

Why not replace the undersized LC battery with a higher capacity battery to improve electric range and overall range?

Of course, the LC computer would need to be adjusted to both recognize the higher capacity battery AND allow the LC to run on electric only at higher speeds (at least up to 25 mph for around town).

Side benefit of that bigger battery…that inverter would keep things going a lot longer than it does now! Maybe even add a plug in hybrid function too so the battery is always full and ready.

Toyota notoriously cheaps out on the traction batteries for platform stability and cost savings. Many people with older Priuses (Pri’i?) replace the OEM NiMH battery with a better Li Ion battery when the original dies.

Anyhow…no turnkey solution right now, but though I would get the hive mind creative juices flowing on this one.

 

[jayce]

Toyota spent a lot of money to engineer the LC the way it currently exists. Your idea is non trivial to implement.

For example, in order to efficiently utilize higher battery capacity to enable electric only mode, you need a sufficiently powerful electric motor. Given the over 5000 lb weight of the LC and current 65 hp electric motor, you can imagine trying to travel uphill or away from a stoplight on electric power only. It would be painful to say the least.

Also, someone will correct me if I’m wrong, the concern over limited range mainly comes into play when traveling off road. There aren’t going to be many electric chargers along the way in this scenario. If one is just talking about highway travel it’s easy enough to pull into a gas station every 200-300 miles and refill.

 

[Doggman1525]

The trick is making enough room for that much battery in a body on frame vehicle. Our full EV sedan weighs almost as much as the LCLC (only about 300lbs short) and that's for about 75 kWh worth of electrons and a realistic range between 175 and 200 miles. The BMW hybrid carries about 1/3rd of that storage, around 35 miles of range. The car is also in the same weight range but both carry a lot of that weight down low in their unit bodies with the car built around them so they are very solid in corners even at speed. They also both use Li not Ni as the cathode which has its own design requirements. The LC battery is less than 2 kWh, barely enough to mow my lawn in comparison.

My guess is that to engineer a battery sizeable enough and energy dense enough to really push the LC around you'd be losing feet, not inches of cargo space and that much weight above the waterline would not feel very stable.

That said if they could problem solve a plug-in hybrid solution that could run all electric for around town driving and just use gas at speed where it's more efficient I'd be all over that!

 

[TLC]

What you’re describing is the Jeep 4xe. It’s essentially the same drivetrain setup as the LC with a rechargeable, larger battery pack.

 

[Doggman1525]

What you’re describing is the Jeep 4xe. It’s essentially the same drivetrain setup as the LC with a rechargeable, larger battery pack.

Yes, essentially you are correct and that is how the jeep is marketed, though from my practical, albeit anecdotal experience (I'm less familiar with the design but my boss drives a Sahara 4xe, I ride shotgun frequently for work) the flying brick aesthetic of the jeep (as with the LC) translates fairly limited electric only range as soon as you are over 40mph. With a full battery once we're on the freeway there better be a pretty strong tail wind to get more than about 10 or 12 miles before the juice is gone and you are back to burning dead dinosaurs. Good enough for short errands close to home but for a presumed overlander or road tripper probably not and for practical purposes not that wildly different from the LC in terms of overall gas mileage - though I grant that having the option to go full electric or to plug in would be a nice-to-have even if not as useful in execution as it would appear.

To be useful as an electric 4x4 with range enough to really go anywhere I think you'd have to look at Rivian, assuming you'd have no qualms about taking a $110k+ ride into the back country. The R1T is like, 7000 pounds give or take? and not limited by a true body-on-frame design by virtue of its motor-at-the-axel layout, no transmission or drive shafts to worry about so able to load the giant battery between the rails, keeping the weight low and the vehicle maneuverable. Imagine with the LC, or the jeep, stuffing a fully grown horse into the cargo bay and driving through city traffic taking corners at 40mph. No thanks.

The mild hybrid design of the LC admittedly has its limitations but I think Toyota has been fairly honest about the purpose of boosting torque and shaving off mpg's around the margins.

 

[PACruiser]

Agreed. The I-Max was never intended to be the type of hybrid sytem many are envisioning when comparing to other vehicles. Rather, it supplements traditional power trains and AWD/4WD distribution systems to provide the best price/performance/fuel economy in this class.

I think a better example of what most are looking for is the BYD Shark plug-in hybrid. Keep in mind it still uses a CVT and 2nd electric motor to drive the rear axle.

BYD Launches its First Pickup Truck BYD SHARK in Mexico

On May 14, BYD launches its first pickup truck, BYD SHARK, in Mexico. Positioned as a new energy intelligent luxury pickup, BYD SHARK features the DMO Super Hybrid Off-road Platform, representing the latest addition to BYD's product portfolio. This model, developed for the global market, marks...

www.byd.com

 

[TLC]

The 4xe battery pack is 17kwh. It provides about 20 miles of all electric driving when new. It’s about 500 lbs and takes up a massive space under the rear seat. If they wanted a larger battery for more range, they’d have to get rid of the gas tank and engine for the space and weight and then it’s just an EV.
I drive a Wrangler 4xe now. I’m looking to get rid of it and get a Land Cruiser instead because it doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I drive 66 miles a day for my commute. I charge it every night. The battery is wiped before I even get to work. For the 46 remaining miles of my commute I’m hauling around a 500 lb boat anchor that reduces the MPG of the ICE.
The Land Cruiser implementation of this is much, much smarter. It uses the hybrid system to supplement the ICE when it’s needed the most, such as high torque requirement events like accelerating from a stop. It uses a small, light battery pack that’s not so heavy it’ll kill the MPG and big enough to have a meaningful impact.
If you have a short commute (<20 miles round trip) then a plug in hybrid could provide an all electric drive most of the time. Otherwise, that large battery becomes a detriment as soon as it’s spent.
Quite honestly, I wish I could rip the 17kwh battery out of my 4xe and replace it with a 1.5kwh one. Then I’d still get the benefit of regen braking and the torque boost, but I wouldn’t have to plug it in every night… but then again… that’s why I’m looking to get a LC.

 

[McCloud_Rainbow]

Wow! Thanks to all for the information and feedback. The knowledge base of the members here is DEEP. All of the comments make sense and really help my understanding of the issues a ton.

So…let me pivot my thesis to something simpler. Is there any advantage to simply replacing the NiMH battery (@ 1.87 kWh) with a more energy dense, higher capacity LiFePO4 battery? Could probably still triple the capacity for the same or less weight.

Aside from boosting battery capacity (and cost) does anyone see any advantage to this upgrade?

Note…I got the LC because I love the LC. I wouldn’t get anything else. I’ve taken it on the Rubicon from Tahoe to the barker pass cutoff and up to some mines in western Nevada. The LC is a beast and is comfortable to run in this stuff. …and I am loving the 20 MPG around town and better on the highway. Beats the low to mid teens of the old LC any day of the week.

 

[mountaindesert]

Toyota spent a lot of money to engineer the LC the way it currently exists. Your idea is non trivial to implement.

For example, in order to efficiently utilize higher battery capacity to enable electric only mode, you need a sufficiently powerful electric motor. Given the over 5000 lb weight of the LC and current 65 hp electric motor, you can imagine trying to travel uphill or away from a stoplight on electric power only. It would be painful to say the least.

Also, someone will correct me if I’m wrong, the concern over limited range mainly comes into play when traveling off road. There aren’t going to be many electric chargers along the way in this scenario. If one is just talking about highway travel it’s easy enough to pull into a gas station every 200-300 miles and refill.

Yes. However, not only do I absolutely hate stopping at gas stations, many of them are unsafe.


If you transport something or someone of extreme value for work or otherwise, you do not want to stop until your final destination.

When I transport something of high value I purposely do not take my Land Cruiser because I know I will have to stop at gas stations.

 

[PACruiser]

Is there any advantage to simply replacing the NiMH battery (@ 1.87 kWh) with a more energy dense, higher capacity LiFePO4 battery? Could probably still triple the capacity for the same or less weight.

Great question. I have noticed that many of the solar and power bank products are making this transition as we speak in their latest generation of products.

Toyota probably had to make the decision on the battery tech 3+ years prior to releasing the 2024 model year. I am sure they do it based on a mix of price, performance, safety, reliability, and supply chain availability characteristics. So each generation they should re-evaluate the best options at the time.

Perhaps others here know more about the potential suitability of the LiFePO4 batteries for this rugged of an application?

 

[TLC]

Wow! Thanks to all for the information and feedback. The knowledge base of the members here is DEEP. All of the comments make sense and really help my understanding of the issues a ton.

So…let me pivot my thesis to something simpler. Is there any advantage to simply replacing the NiMH battery (@ 1.87 kWh) with a more energy dense, higher capacity LiFePO4 battery? Could probably still triple the capacity for the same or less weight.

Aside from boosting battery capacity (and cost) does anyone see any advantage to this upgrade?

Note…I got the LC because I love the LC. I wouldn’t get anything else. I’ve taken it on the Rubicon from Tahoe to the barker pass cutoff and up to some mines in western Nevada. The LC is a beast and is comfortable to run in this stuff. …and I am loving the 20 MPG around town and better on the highway. Beats the low to mid teens of the old LC any day of the week.

There’s a lot of thought that goes into the battery chemistry and capacity. There is the business factors, the engineering (heat, discharge rate, charge rate, weight of vehicle, size of motor), the durability (charge cycles, impact resistance), the safety etc…
The LC is design is based on all those factors.

 

[Watufaka]

Who will be the first to have a Frankenstein Landcruiser...

 

[D-Train]

With all the talk about MPG, range anxiety and fuel tank capacity, why not look at the electric side of the Land Cruiser for improvement? Seems like solutions might be easier to find and implement and would provide more benefits than just a few more gallons of gas onboard. I was originally getting a Rivian R1S with its 450 mile electric range…until I realized I would have to sit at the charger for at least an hour to top up the batteries for full range. No thanks! Happy I bought the LC instead.

I too looked at the Rivian R1S... but decided against it. This after owning several EV's already. Went with the LC. For a hot minute, I was looking at maybe converting an FJ80 over to an EV, but decided cost and (more the complication) was too much. I need this to be a reliable DD as well.

If we could get a smaller LiFePO4 battery that drops the rear floor to level, add a plug for around town battery range of ohhhh.... say 30-40 miles, this thing would be perfect. As noted above, not likely the tech right now, and retrofitting the battery does not solve the motor issue for this to work. Having owned an FJ60 many eons ago, I'm just happy to be getting over 20 mpg in this rig!

 

[LAR]

What crossed my mind after owning this vehicle for several weeks is that we should either find software updates can provide improved, driving experience, or companies will have the ability to make aftermarket improvements that won’t diminish the long-term capability of this vehicle.

I would 100% look at upgrading my electric motor and battery as improved battery capabilities (size, weight, power, cost, cooling, etc.) come to market.

I also looked at the Rivian, and I’m really excited for what’s coming in 2026, but I’m also not ready to dedicate my DD and off-road/map transport to a battery. Not yet.

 

[D-Train]

What crossed my mind after owning this vehicle for several weeks is that we should either find software updates can provide improved, driving experience, or companies will have the ability to make aftermarket improvements that won’t diminish the long-term capability of this vehicle.

I would 100% look at upgrading my electric motor and battery as improved battery capabilities (size, weight, power, cost, cooling, etc.) come to market.

I also looked at the Rivian, and I’m really excited for what’s coming in 2026, but I’m also not ready to dedicate my DD and off-road/map transport to a battery. Not yet.

The infrastructure is just not there yet. How many times have I gotten to a charging station and only 1 or 2 of the chargers work, or are taken, or the payment system is down. Yes, you can road trip EV's with careful planning (I have many times), but the off-road version of this is a non-starter for me. It will get there, eventually...